Piece examination - - - Cleric of Gruumsh

Submitted by: Adkainen (Friday, October 14, 2005) - 917 views
Rating: 4.0 from 2 votes

Cleric of Gruumsh
#59/80; Harbinger; Rare; CE; 21 pts
Commander 3
LVL 4; SPD 4; AC 16; HP 20
Melee Attack: +6 (10)
Type: Humanoid (Orc)
Commander Effect: Followers gain Cleave. WARBAND BUILDING: Orcs and Half-Orcs of any faction are legal in your warband.
Spells: 1st-doom [][][] (sight; attack 2; DC 13); 2nd-inflict moderate wounds [][] (touch; 10 damage; DC 14); bears endurance [] (touch; target living creature gains +10 hp).

The cleric of gruumsh is seldomly added in serious tournament environment. I really dont understand that. I know that you get for the same price a tiefling captain with 19-20 critical and commander rating 4 instead of 3 compared to the cleric.

Of course the cleric has got some major disadvantages:
* speed 4 and not able to move as fast as the typical c/e hitter.
* low hp.
* you need a second commander.

But there are reasonable advantages:
* cleave for your followers, thats great in combination with ogre ravager/large red dragon/red samurai/low cost orcs/clay golem f.e.
* you can doubble move the first two rounds to reach your bands backline. Never cast "bears endurance" in the first two rounds, just make sure that your cleric commander reaches a distance at least 6 squares away from your main hitters.
* its not that bad if you loose the cleric, because its not highly costed.
* its standing in the backline. Because of its low costs its not worth to go commander hunting against this commander.
* your opponents band will "spread out" because it fears the cleaving hitters (intersting for metagaming, when chraals protect their commander).

Here are some 200 points example bands which should work well with the cleric (which mostly include at least 2 commanders):

1st: Cleric/druid I:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-27-Orc druid
2-80-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager (cleaving snakes swiftness)
1-07-Orc savage
5-25-timber wolf
1-03-Orc warrior
12 activation

2nd: Cleric/druid II:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-27-Orc druid
2-80-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager
1-15-Harpye
5-15-Orc warrior
1-05-Timber wolf
12 activation

3rd: Cleric/Eye 4-hitter:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-44-Eye of gruumsh
1-39-Orc champion
1-40-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager
6-18-Orc warrior
11 activation

4th: Cleric summoning:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-21-Tiefling captain
2-58-Cultist of the dragon (+8 cleaving maws/azer/lemure)
1-40-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager
1-07-Orc savage (easy to strike once in melee with act. advant.)
5-15-Orc warrior
12-20 activations

5th: Cleric and tiefling:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-21-Tiefling captain
2-80-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager
1-15-Harpye
1-11-Cursed spirit
5-15-Orc warrior
12 activation

6th: tripple commander:
1-21-Cleric of Grumsh
1-21-Tiefling captain
1-27-Orc druid
1-38-Ogre ravager
1-56-Clay golem
3-15-timber wolf
4-20-Abyssal maw
12 activation

7th: Doubble LRD:
1-021-Cleric of Gruumsh
2-166-Large red dragon
4-012-Orc warrior
7 activation

8th: Doubble Cleric:
2-42-Cleric of gruumsh
2-80-Red samurai
1-38-Ogre ravager
1-15-Halforc assassine (just for fun insted of a harpye)
1-08-Orc brute
1-05-Abyssal maw
4-12-Orc warrior
12 activation

Comments

Posted by DriderSorcerer (Friday, October 14, 2005)

Probably the cleric will be more used with the 8 minis rule. I migth suggest you to add something like this to the list:

Cleric of Gruumsh 21
Lich Necromancer 64
Ogre Ravager 38
Ogre Ravager 38
Cursed Spirit 11
Cursed Spirit 11
Taer 8
Taer 8

199 pts 8 activations. The idea is simple: Paralyse with the lich and kill with the Ravagers. The fodder lower saves and help to paralyse. The Cleric is a tech piece to increase the Ravagers' fun.

Posted by Nobody Important (Friday, October 14, 2005)

A reminder for warband example #4-Lemure summons wouldn't gain cleave due to difficult 20. The only current way to command them is by bringing in a Hezrou then anything can command them.

It's a good thing the upcoming Half-Orc Paladin is a commander or the cleric could bring together a band consisting of every other faction.

Posted by SilentG (Friday, October 14, 2005)

I think that with the advent of the 8 mini limit you're going to see an overall increase in the HP of each unit as less fodder is fielded. This will result in a slight to noticable (hard to say) decrease in the effectiveness of cleave.

Also, in a Chraal heavy game, cleaving isn't that great. Especially with a commander who'll route or die before a 20 damage breath.

Don't forget that the Cleric of Gruumsh has 33% less HP than the same-costed TC and has a 25% more likely chance to be hit, regardless of attack bonuses.

Posted by hardinjmm (Saturday, October 15, 2005)

I think what really kills the Cleric of Gruumsh is not the things listed above, SilentG, but the speed. Speed 4 just doesn't make sense in a CE orc (or other hitter) band, where the slowest stuff is speed 6. I really think that the Cleric should have been LE/CE instead of just CE (yes, I know, that would have made sense for a follower of Gruumsh), since he fits into the LE archetype more.

Posted by 950Rav (Saturday, October 15, 2005)

I think it would play a little more like this:

8-unit format (no point in talking constructed 12 anymore)

21 Cleric of Gruumsh
24 Orc Sergeant
44 Eye of Gruumsh
78 2x Orc Champion
24 2x Mountain Orc
07 Orc Savage
----
200 points, 8 activations.

Nothing but beats. Mountain Orcs striking for 20 at +10 TH, Orc Champions for 30 at +15 TH, Orc Savage for 20 at +9 TH, and all with cleave. This maximizes your commander effects and damage output. With all pieces adjacent to targets, you have the potential to dish out a total 170 on first attacks, 120 on cleaves and 85 on second attacks. In other words, you could wipe out your opponent's entire warband during the second round.

If I just want to maximize the cleric's utility, then:
80 Hezrou
40 Red Samurai
38 Ogre Ravager
21 Cleric of Gruumsh
21 Tiefling Captain
05 Orc Spearfighter
06 2x Orc Warrior

The Hezrou has resist fire and boosts the attack bonuses to better enable cleave, Tiefling provides extended crit and init rolls, Cleric activates last and provides light healing. Your damage output is far lower, but your versatility is significantly improved.

Posted by SilentG (Saturday, October 15, 2005)

We'll just have to wait and see if there's some awesome renaissance of the Cleric of Gruumsh, but I don't see it happening. A wizard tactician will almost certainly route him.

As Hardin pointed out, the speed issue is a real killer too. Why hobble your whole band when you can just run orc champs and a TC and get a better commander on all fronts?

Posted by 950Rav (Saturday, October 15, 2005)

Don't factor in Wizard Tactician. Nobody will run it. The only ability they have that you would factor against their point cost is the one use of the improved magic missle. After that, its a pair of bigby's hands, which you won't be using on anything that isn't in the front lines anyhow. Its never going to be a threat. If they come up with another solid ranged unit to make the Valenar commander an viable choice, then you might have something to point at.

Posted by SilentG (Monday, October 17, 2005)

Rav, somehow I don't think you have the authority to really say for sure on the Wizard Tactician. There are lots of situations where a spell like slapping hands will be more useful with perfect targeting - GMA - base target with frenzied berserkers, move up tactician who'd normally still have to target some closer fodder unit, but bam, slapping hands on optimal, based target instead.

Posted by jgsugden (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

The wizard tactician is there for one simple reason: Reduce the number of single commander bands. It will have just enough play presence to discourage the use of single commander bands with low hps. You can't run a single cleric of gruumsh, tiefling captain, or bugbear champion for fear that someone will sneak in the tactician to get that extra 15 points of damage at that critical moment. He'll be a far frinmge tier 1 piece ... and that is all he needs to be to have his effect on the game.

Posted by Generic Poster (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

I'm thinking the Wizard Tactician could make a nice combination with the Half-giant as well. Use the empowered magic missle then move the giant to attack whatever needs to be killed with his speed 12 and then throw slapping hands on it for some more damage. On good rolls your looking at 90 damage by round 2 on whatever is within 12 spaces of the HGPW.

Even without the tactician though I see most warbands getiing more mobile over time and with less activations coming up there will usually be better choices then the CoG. I can still see him being used for his warband building ability if there's a sweet enough Orc that's not CE worth bringing in though.

Posted by Generic Poster (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

correction, it's 80 damage.

Posted by 950Rav (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

8 units = less fodder, and tougher fodder. I think the Wizard Tactician will make appearances in warbands, but those warbands won't place 1st against real competition.

If I have a choice between a Wizard Tactician and 2 Graycloaks, I take the two graycloaks. Tactician and Goliath Barbarian? Barbarian. These are all comparably costed pieces. The tactician basically lacks the consistent output needed to make it a viable piece in its point slot.

Can you plan to face it? Sure. I wouldn't. And if I did, its not exactly the toughest threat to overcome. You're throwing your melee pieces in fast, and the tactician will be dealing with them; that largely negates the utility of its special ability. Give it Blindsight, let it ignore spell resistance, I probably still wouldn't run it. 27 points has to deliver more consistent output. After all, consider Adventuring Wizard... similar cost, has AOE high damage effect (which even ignores SR) and an extra magic missle on top of what the wizard tactician offers. 9 extra points. It isn't used. The wizard tactician won't be used either.

Posted by SilentG (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

You may prove to be right Rav, but I'd still like to wait and see how things turn out a few months after UD is released. Regardless, my point about the tactician is just a critique of the CoG's survivability - you say two graycloak's over a wizard tact. I say a Tiefling Captain EVERYTIME over a CoG. Unless they pump out some amazing non CE orcs. It's almost the same dependability argument for both pieces - for equal points Tiefling Captains are a much more survivable commander in CE who adds extra punch when paired with orc champs over the CoG.

Posted by Adkainen (Tuesday, October 18, 2005)

drider: Your lich warband seems good, just did not think about lich-cleric combination.

rav: Why did you add 2 orc champion into your first 8-mini-rule example warband? They really dont benefit from the cleric of gruumsh, so i think two red samurai (or one sam and one ravager) are quiete better.

silentg: Tiefling is a good mini, no question, but a cleaving band just offers other options. The fragility of tiefling and cleric of gruumsh is pretty similar!

generic: the half-giants damage can be 115 per round:
40 hit, cleave 25, wizard tactican slapping hand: 25, cleave 25 !
Think about a second wizard tactican :)

Posted by Lateralus (Wednesday, October 19, 2005)

Don't forget. One of the new rule changes will be line of sight of all commander effects as opposed to the "6 square rule" we are acustomed to now. I believe this, as well as the "8-max rule" will make the Cleric of Gruumsh quite an effective unit. We'll see.

Posted by Nobody Important (Wednesday, October 19, 2005)

Lateralus, where have you seen that command effects will all be line of sight? What I've read is that speed 2 for out-of-command will go away which is similiar to LOS command but not the same. Command Range of 6 will remain otherwise the Trumpet Archon's herald ability was a COMPLETE waste. The new rule will just make movement easier and have no effect on how current command effects work.

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